tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC June 17, 2014 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
marriage right. >> there you have it. you get tonight's last word. you can find me on facebook at good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. big news today in the case of four americans killed in the u.s. consulate in benghazi, one of the alleged ringleaders in that attack was apprehended by u.s. special operations forces, being transferred back to the u.s. where he will face criminal charges for murder. in the case of the murder of those four americans, which is what the actual benghazi attack was about, this is probably the biggest break in that case thus far. there's even new credible reporting from "the new york times" confirming what the white house and susan rice initially said about the attack in the days after it.
that it was motivated by the controversial american-made anti-islamic online video. but there is also the world of #benghazi. the internet, right wing media, geopolitical led world of total obsessive conspiracy theorizing and delusional paranoia. on the day of the biggest break in the actual benghazi case, the media face of #benghazi wasted no time whatsoever sliding into a fevered bit of speculation. >> this is somebody that was quite boastful in the papers. he was seen outside in a luxury hotel drinking a strawberry frappe, talking to a "new york times" reporter talking about his involvement and not fearing at all the united states was going to get him or the authorities. >> the former secretary of state in the middle of a really high-profile book tour and i think this is convenient for her to shift the talking points from some of the things she's been discussing. >> that's right. implications that former
secretary of state hillary clinton #benghazi's target is being saved by the capture. clinton was interviewed on fox news this very day. we'll speak to someone who knows a thing or two about being the target of politicized national security scandal. but first, the capture of ahmed khattala. he was apprehended by u.s. special operations forces comprised of u.s. commandos working with the fbi. he was captured on sunday, now in custody and being transported on the "u.s.s. new york" back to the united states. the president today remarked on the significance of this capture. >> i said at the time that my absolute commitment was to make sure that we brought to justice those who had been responsible. when americans are attacked, no matter how long it takes, we will find those responsible and we will bring them to justice. >> it appears khattala will be
tried in a civilian court based upon the three count criminal complaint filed last year by the fbi, killing a person in the course of an attack on a federal facility, providing material support to terrorists resulting in death, possessing and using a firearm during a crime of violence. the pentagon said all u.s. personnel involved in the operation have safely left libya. i spoke to the press secretary for the pentagon and asked him what happened to make this operation come through now. >> well, look, this was the result of months and months of hard work. it was a very successful operation. lot of work and a lot of bravery and courage went into this. and you don't -- you don't come to a conclusion like this in such a complicated, complex environment without a lot of preparation, so, you know, i know it seems like it took a long time, but these kinds of things sometimes do take a long time to reach this kind of conclusion. >> there's reporting to indicate that this was on the president's
desk waiting to be authorized and was not authorized out of concerns for the diplomatic blowback there might be in libya. is that the case? >> well, look, i don't want to get into any kind of diplomatic discussion here. the point is, and the thing that people need to remember is that this is a very bad individual and he's no longer walking the streets. he's in u.s. custody and going to stand trial. >> is there precedence for a joint operations forces fbi operation like this to apprehend a suspect in a foreign sovereign nation such as like what we have seen? is this unprecedented or have we done stuff like this before? >> well, without getting into the details on too much operational stuff, absolutely. we've done these kinds of things before. working closely with law enforcement and the intel community across the military. this is not unprecedented. this was the result of a lot of great teamwork and preparation,
again, over a long period of time. >> what is the legal architecture that authorizes this? why is it legal to go into the sovereign nation of libya to do this? >> i'm not a legal expert, but the president has constitutional authorities, commander in chief, to protect american citizens abroad, to protect the united states military, and, look, this individual alleged individual was a key figure in the benghazi attack where american citizens were killed and belongs to an organization that clearly represents a threat to american interests so i think there's -- certainly this was definitely a lawful operation and in the keeping with our best national interests. >> ahmed abu khattala, the man in question, whose custody is he currently in? fbi doj custody? is he in the custody of the u.s. armed forces? >> he is in u.s. custody in a secure location outside libya, and clearly law enforcement personnel are with him as we speak. >> has he been notified of his miranda rights? >> i'm not going to get into the judicial process. i really shouldn't go there. i can just tell you that he is
in u.s. custody and obviously we want to take the opportunity to talk to him and it wouldn't surprise anybody, shouldn't surprise anybody that we're going to try to glean as much information as we can out of him. >> is there any information you can share about how he's being designated in terms of the legal process? obviously we've seen since september 11th there's been a very murky area legally of whether we're dealing with the laws of war or dealing with domestic criminal law when it comes to certain people who have been apprehended and brought into u.s. custody? is there definitives of how the u.s. views him? is she essentially a u.s. criminal suspect, a criminal suspect under criminal law? >> he has been charged and you can look at the charge sheet that the justice department has posted online. he's been charged with some pretty serious crimes, and he's going to travel to the united states to stand trial for those crimes.
>> rear admiral john kirby, spokesperson for the pentagon. thanks. >> thanks. conservatives, fox news host, and pundits complained about trying khattala in a court, the most tantalizing hash tag for them was, again, the timing of the capture. >> if you knew where this guy was, if you've known where bowe bergdahl was, why is it being used to change the narrative of certain stories? you know, it's twofold. one perhaps it's a political motivation on the part of the administration. >> but the timing sure is interesting, isn't it? >> i wouldn't put it by them. you know, timing this capture. the guy obviously was easy to capture. let's wait and capture him when it's -- when the going gets tough. >> motivation for the attacks has also been an obsession of the world of #benghazi and today in "the new york times" david kirkpatrick, multiple sources of information on that subject, brings a new scoop on the
motivation of the alleged ringleader who was captured and in is custody today. what he, khattala, did in the period before the attack has remained unclear but mr. abu khaftala told other libyans in private conversations during the night of attack he was moved to attack the diplomatic mission to take revenge for an insult to islam in an american made video. it's precisely what susan rice and the white house said in the wake of the attack. in other words, they were exactly correct about the motivations for the attack. one of the many reported facts on the ground that never seemed to penetrate the #benghazi bubble. as for the #benghazi fox news hillary clinton interview, all those who knew what, when questions were asked and hillary answered them all again as well as highlighting the effort that really mattered. >> what we try to do in this country, and i think what was made abundantly clear by this latest effort, is we have an unwavering commitment to go after anyone, no matter how long it takes, who is responsible for
harming americans. and everybody around the world who thinks about that, plans that, needs to know that will be the outcome. >> joining me now, former ambassador, joe wilson, he was a u.s. diplomat in iraq under saddam hussein from 1988 to 1991. his wife was outed adds a cia agent after he wrote an op-ped publicly debunking the claim george w. bush made. he's the author of "politics of truth." joe, i'd like to hear your reaction to watching the #benghazi world of scandal continue to cycle despite the fact it has been factually debunked. >> well, i think they just make things up. that's very clear. and the problem with all of the flapping of the gums by the right wing ecochamber and by their allies up on the hill is it undermines our ambassador's ability to do the work of our
country. if i'm an ambassador and there and have to worry about what darrell issa, lindsey graham, john mccain are going to say if an operation goes bad, i may not be inclined to do nigh job which is to reach out and meet people who may not be that friendly to me. on a second note, let me say personally, my colleagues in the foreign service share this view, i think what they have done with their money-raising campaigns and slander campaigns, they have dishonored the memories of four of my former colleagues including one glen doherty with woman i served on the advisory board. it's absolutely scandalous. >> you worked in the foreign service and incredibly risky environments, are you satisfied the person today who's allegedly responsible for this has actually been apprehended, going to be tried in u.s. court? >> sure, that's what we do.
you pick up a criminal, you try them in federal court. that's what we're supposed to do. we're a nation of laws. by doing things like holding people in detention without the benefit of trial, it's a violation of those laws. >> ambassador, you're someone who found himself with a bull's-eye painted on you and was subject to a tremendous campaign of character assassination and smear jobs. what is it like to go through that, and have you been thinking of that experience as you've been watching the bowe bergdahl, and how hillary clinton has found herself under fire on this topic? >> sure, it's the same disregard for the truth, any public discourse at all. it's really high school bullying except the states are of national and international consequences. >> what does it feel like to find yourself as the subject of this kind of thing? i think to myself as i watch someone take their turn in the spotlight under the kind of scandal machinery of the right,
what the internal experience of it is like. >> well, i think it's disorienting, frankly. you're put in a position where you either run and hide like john dilulio did, president bush's former religious and faith adviser. when he called him little -- they drove him underground. my case it was you either fight or flee. we decided to stand up and fight. >> one of the things that came out today in the reporting on this is, and i think about susan rice who found herself in that position initially, as sort of fall person in this scandal, what she went out and said on the sunday shows, which was the initial precipitating condition of the scandal, which is that basically the video as the best intelligence indicates the video was the inspiration for the attack. all this time later when we apprehended the person that was allegedly responsible, that that
was actually right. do you have faith that that truth will actually get rid of the bubble of speculation that has built up over this? >> yeah, surprise, surprise. at the end of the day, they savaged susan rice for a set of talking points that were delivered to her by david petraeus and the cia and they, you know, cost her her chance at being secretary of state as a consequence of that. it is really dishonorable what these people are doing up on the hill. and the right wing echo chamber. >> finally, as someone who served in iraq, as someone who served in iraq in, right on the eve of the first gulf war, i have to ask what your reaction is to watching that country come apart in the violent fashion it is right now. >> oh, it's heartbreaking. it's heartbreaking. i was back there in september of 2010. there were still 40,000 u.s. troops there. baghdad was a garrison city that i didn't even recognize and my
security detail wouldn't let me go one block off the main road either to go see the former embassy i headed or see the residence i used to live in. when i got back there in 2010, the neighborhoods had already been ethnically segregated. there were concrete barriers and checkpoints. you could not get from one neighborhood to another. it was a city -- even then teetering on the brink. so for john mccain to somehow say that we had won the war, he's living in fantasy land. it was a time bomb waiting to go off and it's now gone off. and my view is we should just stay out of it. we've killed enough arabs for a lifetime. >> former ambassador joe wilson. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. coming up, we've been talking about all the people who got it wrong the first time around with iraq. tonight we're going to talk with someone who got it right and get her take on what's going on there now. that's next. [ girl ] my mom, she makes underwater fans
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so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can. it is now apparent to just about everyone who's watching that there is a deep sectarian division that is driving the chaos in iraq. the group we've been showing you pictures of, these guys with the black banners who are pretty terrifying dudes, they are sunni extremists who have been targeting the shia population in iraq. in fact, they claim to have carried out a mass execution of 1,700 shiite soldiers over the weekend near the city of tikrit. what they are trying to do is polarize a country even more
along sectarian lines. that's why you release images of a mass execution to shock and terrify people into choosing sides between sunni and shia. unfortunately, it seems to be working. today in iraq, over 40 sunni detainees were reportedly shot in the head and chest by shiite militias north of baghdad. while a car bomb in a shiite neighborhood of the capital killed 12. it has been enabled bay this man, nuri al maliki, iraq's shiite prime minister, u.s. hand picked i should add, who has consistently antagonized and marginalized sunnis in iraq. in a massively unhelpful move today, al maliki declared a boycott of the sunni political bloc and cracking down on officials he sees as traitors. probably not the effort president obama was looking for. >> any action that we may take to provide assistance to iraqi security forces has to be joined by a serious and sincere effort
by iraq's leaders to set aside sectarian differences. >> just a few hours later, maliki did a 180 calling for unity in a joint press conference with sunni and kurdish leaders that was described as visibly uncomfortable. isis continues its advance toward baghdad. militants have at least partial control of more than ten iraqi cities and they're closing in on government-held cities to the north of the capital. one of those cities under isis control is baiji. it's home to iraq's largest oil refinery, one of only three in the entire country. it was shut down over night as the insurgents swept through the city. president obama will host congressional leadership at the white house tomorrow to consult on how to deal with the crisis. if leaders in washington are struggling to figure out what to do about the sunni/shia divide, you can't blame them. the people who concocted the war more than a decade ago told us this type of conflict didn't even exist there. >> there are other differences
that suggest peace-keeping requirements in iraq might be much lower than historical experience in the balkans suggests. there's been none of the record in iraq of ethnic militias fighting one another that produce so much bloodshed and permanent scars in bosnia, along with a continuing requirement for large peace-keeping forces to separate those militias. >> well, there were none until we showed up. chaos and violence and destabilization we're seeing in iraq don't come as a surprise to people who originally opposed the war precisely because they feared something like this would happen. for instance, congresswoman barbara lee. >> i rise today in opposition to this opposition authorizing a unilateral first strike against iraq. such an action could destabilize the middle east and set an international precedent that could come back to haunt us all. >> and congresswoman barbara lee, democrat from california, joins me now. she is the only member of
congress to vote against the authorization for use of military force after 9/11. she also voted against invading iraq in 2002. she just offered an amendment to repeal both of those pieces of legislation. congresswoman, thank you for joining me. >> my pleasure. >> what is your reaction now to watching many of the architects of the iraq war come forward to offer their advice about the latest crisis? >> well, let's hope that they remember history. and we do not want history to repeat itself. too many of our young men and women paid the supreme price. they did exactly what we asked them to do. $1 trillion-plus. so, chris, what i have to say is this. i'm glad that the president is being very cautious in his response and looking at all alternatives. when the resolution to authorize force against iraq came forward, i offered an amendment to that resolution that said let's hold up, let's let the united nations complete its inspections process. because we have to remember,
once again, we were told there were weapons of mass destruction. there were no weapons of mass destruction in iraq. and so minimally we should have allowed the inspections process to move forward, to be completed. had we done that, i only got 7 2 votes for that amendment, chris, but had we passed that amendment, allowed that to happen, i don't believe we would be where we are now. the invasion caused the sectarian violence. it caused us to be where we are now. and now this is the regional conflict that in many ways our invasion started. >> you're proposing an amendment now to the defense appropriations bill that would bar combat troops from entering iraq in this current crisis. are you getting many takers on capitol hill for that? >> well, i believe there are many members of congress who want to see my amendment which is just basically says no funds will be allowed to be used, no taxpayer dollars to fund combat operations in iraq. we'll see.
the republican tea party, of course, controls what gets to the floor, but let's hope that there's a debate. let's hope that we can get it to the floor and talk about it. and also, i'm trying to repeal the authorization that allowed the war to take place, shock and awe if we remember that, and also the 2001 authorization to use force. so i'm asking, chris, the public to please sign up at stopendlesswar.com because we need to hear an outpour of support for these amendments because members of congress will respond to what their constituencies say. stopendlesswar.com. >> let's talk about the second of the two authorizations. i think it comes as a surprise to most people the authorization for the use of military support, authorizing military force in iraq, is still the law of the land. it's never been repealed. even though the war has ended. even know we've declared the war over. that is still the controlling law. there is still authority vested by congress and the president to wage war in iraq if he so wants.
isn't that the case? >> that's the case. and congress needs to reassert its constitutional authority and repeal this and then begin a debate again with regard to the use of force and what congress believes should be the appropriate response. and i have to tell you, chris, we have the farm bill. we have transportation bills. they all have end dates. they never go on for 12 or 13 years. the 2001 authorization which has been used as the congressional research service has indicated over 30 times for drone attacks. for guantanamo. for indeterminate sentencing. for wiretapping. for all of the issues that we are so worried about in this country. that resolution has been used as the legal basis and legal justification. and so i think it's time to go back to the drawing board on the 2001 and the 2002 resolution. as you said, the majority of the american people don't know those resolutions and those authorities are still in place. so we have to put congress back in the mix and exercise a constitutional authority and begin to really have a real debate.
>> given republican control of the house of representatives, and their expressed skepticism toward white house power, toward president obama, you would imagine you might find some takers across the aisle. we will see if that bears out. congresswoman barbara lee, thank you sow much. >> thank you, chris. all right. we mentioned that iraq's largest oil refinery has been shut down. the effect this new crisis will have on gas prices around the globe is yet to be known. you know who was less worried about that today? people who own electric cars. i'll talk to elon musk about his mission to innovate our way off fossil fuels. that's coming up. spokesperson: the volkswagen passat is heads above the competition,
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congratulations. you guys were great. just spectacular. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. >> great to see you. >> are you kidding me? this is a kick, man. >> vice president joe biden was in attendance yesterday at the incredible u.s. victory over ghana in the world cup. as you see, he worked the locker room afterwards. it was joe biden doing what he does best. biden-ing. that victory for the u.s. men's team was a perfect encapsulation of why world cup soccer is so exciting to watch. america scored 30 seconds into the game. sixth fastest goal in world cup history then spent the next 82 minutes getting their butt kicked but still managing to hold off an equalizer from ghana until ghana tied it up. then miraculously against all odds, this happened.
what you see there are people in kansas city watching as american john brooks headed the winning goal into the net. moments after he came off the bench as a substitute. that wasn't the only place masses of people have been congregating to watch these games. in chicago's grant park, there was a similar scene. yeah, that's an awesome one. in portland, oregon, a newscast accidentally caught the moment live. >> come on down to 21st and northwest. we've got tons of great places to watch. [ cheers ] how about that? how about that? >> as you can see their man on the ground was prepared. busting out the usa jersey. a smooth move, dude. all those people chanting "usa, usa" yesterday, i was one cheering in my office. right before this show started. i actually forgot i had to do the show for a moment and hustled down here very late to the chair. that i submit is what's great
for the world cup. everyone is rooting for their country's team and brings out this national pride but at the same time that national pride is part of a larger universal experience shared across the globe. because there are people in cafes and parks from rio de janeiro to accra, to tokyo, even outer space where people are as proud of their own country rooting just as loudly, celebrating just as festively when their team scores a goal as you are celebrating your own team. and somehow it manages to make us all feel like we're doing this together. across the globe. even as we pull for our guys to kick the other team's butt. so, if you haven't had a chance to watch the world cup or don't like soccer that much, find a place where there's a big crowd watching and join them. you won't regret it. ♪ [ male announcer ] if you can't stand the heat, get off the test track.
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carolina reporting on one of those stories. we'll be bringing you. and i spent time in a small town with a conservative republican mayor who was absolutely furious with the republican state government in north carolina refusing to expand medicaid. and i would like to hereby predict we will see more and more of this republican backlash to the backlash on medicaid expansion. if you don't believe me, allow me to introduce you to one david vitter, republican senator from louisiana, candidate for governor in that state, not exactly known as a profile in april courage or a brave voice for the voiceless. like every other republican in the senate at the time, david vitter did not vote for the affordable care act. but now as a candidate for governor in the state where republicans have refused to expand medicaid, blocking health coverage for an estimated 242,000 people, david vitter of all people says he'd consider removing the republican road block and expanding medicaid if he becomes governor. david vitter is no doubt reacting to pressure that's building up around the medicaid expansion.
as results are being seen in states that have taken the expansion. both minnesota and kentucky to name two examples cut their uninsured rate by more than 40%. 40%. almost half the people who didn't have insurance in those states before obamacare have insurance now. and that's not the only good news on the obamacare front. there's also news this week of a flood of new insurance companies saying they want to join the obamacare exchanges next year. with data from ten states showing 27 new insurers saying they will be offering plans through the obamacare exchanges in 2015, the second year of its operation. based on the way the program's designed, more insurers should mean more competition, more choice, lower premiums for patients which is good news. in case you're wondering, this is what success looks like for obamacare. it looks practically invisible. it looks like a story that's largely disappeared from cable news and the front pages of major newspapers. an issue that is not the number one subject of domestic political argumentation anymore. because the funny thing about
obamacare is the more it actually works, the less people talk about it. if you don't believe me, here's a case in point. tonight, fox news had hillary clinton for 30 minutes across two primetime shows and did not ask a single question about obamacare. joining me now, wendell potter, former head of communications for the health insurance giant cigna. author of "obamacare: what's in it for me?" wendell, let's start with the news about the 27 new insurance companies that are going to be joining the exchanges coming in off the sideline? what do you make of that news? >> well, it doesn't surprise me a bit because what happened, these big companies decided they did not want to participate at the very beginning. much of these were investor-owned companies and these investors don't really like a lot of risk and these big companied, united health care in particular, they're now jumping in because they see that there's plenty of opportunity there. and the government is also helping to mitigate some of the risk.
so i think we're going to see during this coming, this next year, during the most open enrollment, a lot more choice and i think you will see premiums stabilizing and not increasing as much as the right wing said it would. >> so there's two ways you can view this news. one this is going to be good for consumer,s, more choice, more competition pushing down premiums. the other thing is if insurers think they can make a buck in this market, maybe we should be skeptical it is good for consumers. which of those do you think is the more accurate way of understanding this? >> i think it's both. i frankly think it is both. the insurance companies see an opportunity to make money. they've never been in the business except to make money. they say they can make money on the exchanges. they'll get in, stay in. >> do you think we're going to see a turning point on medication expansion similar to this kind of growing thing we're seeing in the exchange market, more and more insurers wanting to get in? are we going to see more and more states opting in? >> you really will. keep in mind the original
medicaid program. it took a few years before all the states were in. the same thing is happening with this medicaid expansion. and the governors and the legislators in states that have not expanded, they're going to obviously look to see what is happening in arizona and new jersey and other states led by republican governors and seeing it makes sense. they're also going it be under increasing pressure from health care providers, hospitals in particular to expand. as you made a reference to in north carolina. you'll be seeing that all across the country in states that have not yet expanded. incredible pressure, economic pressure for them to expand their medicaid operations. >> will you explain -- i think people don't fully grasp why obamacare is so bad for hospitals in states that haven't expanded medicaid. what is the argument those hospitals in those states are going to be making to lawmakers? >> well, because if they don't expand, they'll be losing federal revenue and they need that federal revenue to keep their doors open. if they don't, a lot of these hospitals will actually close
and you'll see community hospitals in particular shutting their doors which cannot be sustained and i think the political pressure on legislators and gubernatorial candidates is going to increase because these hospitals have considerable clout in their communities and in the state halls. >> in terms of the 40% number that we've seen out of kentucky and minnesota, are you surprised the numbers in those states is that big in just one year? >> no, i don't, because there has been such pent up demand for insurance. keep in mind that before obamacare, many of those people couldn't buy coverage at any cost, at any price. so, i'm really glad to see that number from kentucky because it's where i used to live and work. and i think you'll see that also in other states as well, too. and keep in mind, chris, this is just six months. we're in this for the long haul. >> right. >> and so i think in the next year or so, you're going to see a lot of that kind of progress made. >> wendell potter, thank you so much. >> thank you, chris.
quick programming note. next week our "all in america" series will return. we've been on the road for weeks in georgia, illinois, north carolina, in our own backyard putting together stories you haven't seen anywhere else including a report that reveals where some of the most segregated schools in america are, not where you might think, plus how a deep red former confederate state could actually turn blue with some simple math. and the case of a murder in chicago that disappeared. tune in all next week for that. there will be a different piece every night. you don't want to miss. [ female announcer ] there's a gap out there. that's keeping you from the healthcare you deserve. at humana, we believe if healthcare changes, if it becomes simpler... if frustration and paperwork decrease... if grandparents get to live at home instead of in a home...
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its patents for other automakers and others in the auto industry to use. >> it is rare and it is bold. tesla is sharing its secrets, opening its patents for the world to see. >> we haven't seen this type of move from any automaker. >> this is completely unusual when it comes to the auto industry. >> tesla's decision to open up its patents of a perfect example the car company has and the tremendous scope of its ambition. they're not just trying to build a car company, they're trying to build a new whole industry. one that would mean a shift from today's gas guzzlers to zero emissions electric vehicles with massive implications for the economy and climate. tesla is the rarest of success stories. successful, innovative young american automaker. the stock price has exploded over the past five years. astounding $30 million market valuation and a claim for selling what "consumer reports" considers the best car you can buy. i had a chance to sit down with elon musk, the visionary behind
it all. so we were doing research when we were doing a segment on tesla and going back through the archives of american car startups that have failed. >> right. a big archive, i'm sure. >> actually a big wikipedia page. >> absolutely. >> it was actually kind of fun. i was like, wow, all these dreamers that got -- >> big grave yard. >> why are you guys -- how have you avoided that fate so far? why is tesla working so far? >> i think, you know, when you look at the other car companies, there wasn't any big technology discontinuity. there wasn't a step change in technology that warranted the creation of new car company in america, whereas with the add vent of electric cars it's the biggest advent. it's a really substantial change and does lend itself to expertise from outside the car industry. and i think that provides an opportunity for a company like tesla and, in fact, i've somewhat been surprised at how much of a lead we have.
we actually don't want to have the lead we have. we're hoping that other car companies would follow us faster. >> you just had this patent decision and this gets the point you're saying. you're further ahead of other car companies than you would like to be. >> yeah. >> because there's a certain kind of broad interest you have in the defusion of electric cars, right? >> right. >> is that what is driving your recent decision to essentially not pursue intellectual property claims on your own patents? >> yeah. we decided to open up the patents because we think it's important that there be a lot of electric cars in the world. you know, a lot of people say, well, it's really an altruistic decision. does altruism really exist? no company would do that. it's important to bear in mind we're really all on the same ship. you know, if tesla succeeds but then the climate is destroyed, i'm not sure that actually helps tesla.
>> right. >> i mean, it's sort of like, let's say you're on a -- >> ac, you have to crank the ac which runs down the battery. >> yeah. right. the appropriate analogies. an analogy that might be appropriate here. say there's a bunch of people on the ship and a bunch of holes in the ship. we're quite good at sort of bailing the water out of our section and this nice bucket. we're foolish not to share that bucket design because if the ship goes down, we're going with it. >> now that you are selling batteries to some other car companies, what do you see happening in the rest of the car industry? i mean, can you imagine that we're going to see a slide toward kind of battery plus electric drive train or not? i mean, what do you predict that the other car companies are
going to do as this technology develops? >> well, my observation of the car industry thus far is that with a few exceptions, the only electric cars that are made are driven by regulations. you know, like the governments will say you've got to make some number of electric cars. they'll make sort of that exact number, no more, which is quite a small movement. the other force i think is competition. so if they see that, well, if they don't make electric cars then they're going to lose market share, then i think that will get them to make electric cars. >> meaning you guys are the proof of concept from a market perspective. if you start making a lot of money, if you start showing that people will buy your car, then you're going to see the rest of the industry -- >> yes. exactly. so if people are -- if consumers show that they want electric cars, that they buy our cars and buy our cars instead of gasoline cars, then i think that that makes the big manufacturers sort of take notice and say, maybe we should have a serious electric car program.
because otherwise tesla is going to take away our market share. that seems to be a good -- >> how far are you from that point? >> well, we're pretty far from that point. we're very tiny. so last year we did 22,000 cars. this year we're aiming to do 35,000. so on a percentage basis, it's quite big growth. but considering that there are almost 100 million cars made last year, we're not even next to the decimal point. we have a ways to go before we get next to the decimal point in percentage market share, but we are doing quite well in our particular segment. so few you say premium sedans in the united states, we actually -- we're the bestselling premium sedan last year in the united states in terms of the high end. >> now, if there's a single person best positioned to say where we are and where we need to be on the issue of climate change, it's elon musk at the forefront of the fight to rein in carbon emissions. i asked him where we now stand and what he said really surprised me. that's ahead.
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industrial base that is based on our gasoline or diesel instead of fossil fuels. the fact that there's 2 billion vehicles on the road worldwide, there's 100 million new gasoline cars made a year, even if all new cars were electric, it would take 20 years to change out the fleet, and of course, we're very far from all new cars being electric. so that's what gives me a lot of concern about the future from a climate perspective. we're quickly exhausting the carbon capacity of the oceans and atmosphere, and we're not quickly moving toward electric cars or -- >> it's funny, you sound more pessimistic than i would have imagined you. like, i would imagine you're professionally optimistic. >> i am optimistic. i'm a naturally optimistic person. >> you're doing something, you'd have to be an optimist to start an electric car company or start a space company or solar
company. what will it take to basically have the next ten years of, say, solar and electric renewable energy look like the last ten years of smartphone development? >> i'd love to say that that's even possible, and -- i'd like to say it's possible, but the thing that's difficult to appreciate -- i suppose if you think about it for a moment, maybe it's not that hard, if the sheer size of the economy depends on hydrocarbons. it's truly staggering, you know, to consider. the number of factories that have to be bought to produce factories, electric cars, produce solar panels, it's enormous. you know, it's -- if you think of all the oil fields and the gas fields and the refineries and you're trying to replace that infrastructure which is trillions of dollars, so it would be difficult for us to move too fast, but at the same time, i mean, if we said, like,
okay, let's go as fast as possible which we're certainly not going, it would still take a long time. so the thing that -- that's the thing that i guess makes me a little bit concerned or more than a little bit concerned about the future is that the vast amount of infrastructure that has to change -- >> the legacy stuff that's all just sitting there. >> just so big. >> so big. >> do you think we are properly -- that right now the market and the educational system is properly allocating talent into the areas that we need? because it strikes me that right now when instagram sells for billions of dollars and you can make an iphone game app that makes a lot of money or go sell mortgage-backed securities, we're not necessarily getting people to solve the really tough problems having to do with solar engineering or battery capacity that are going to be the thing we need to solve or even carbon sequestration to make this
problem solvable. >> yeah, i mean, i think it's a tough thing. the biggest problem that we have right now is that we have a breakdown in the market system. i'm ordinarily quite a big believer in the market because the market is just the sum of individuals' decisions. but when there's a breakdown in the information mechanism, the market, that's where things go awry. so because there's no price on carbon emissions, it makes things that are carbon producing very rewarding. because the true price is not being paid. so if you're a petrochemical engineer, you can earn a huge amount of money but you really shouldn't be earning that huge amount of money -- anyway, it's not -- the market mechanism is broken. it's a classic economics problem. tragedy of the commons. >> the atmosphere that we all have that -- >> yeah. you see this in international fishing stocks where there's --
since no one owns that familiar fishing area, it will get fished to extinction. there's no price for that. there's no price for carbon. so we do all these things that cause long-term damage. >> "all in" for this evening. the "rachel maddow show" begins right now. good evening, rachel. good evening, chris. thank you. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. the conservative medium and conservative movement in this country have a single, undisputed home on the internet. there's one low-tech mostly black-and-white website which is basically the home page online for the whole american right wing. and it has been the same website, it has been the same place for more than a decade now. yeah, there have been others that have tried to topple it,